From: "Digest" To: "OS/2GenAu Digest" Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:00:00 +1100 (EDT) Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 283 Reply-To: Date:- 27 February 2002 1================================================ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:37:03 -0500 From: Chris_neeson Subject: Re: [os2genau] REMINDER - Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting Hi John. Don't forget I've got a 30min demo ready about IBMverken databases. Regards Chris 2============================================== From: "Dr Graham Norton FRACP Neurologist" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:46:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Hello all We have several aging workstations, indeed I remember vividly that we purchased them at the same time as the release of Win 95 In anticipation of something! Anyway within months we realised the mistake and migrated to OS2 and eventually Warp Server.. thats the preamble... within the past month, literally 3 machines have died and the power unit has emitted blue flames, smoke and the smell of roasting mouse... so its new boxes and power units and same old floppy, HD and CD player but new mother boards CPU and 256 RAM.... the supplier was horrified to learn (after the first of the new PC boxes power units blew up within 24 hours -and which he replaced obviously) that we leave all our units powered on and have done really ever since 1995! We turn things off over the xmas long break but other than logging off , the units chugg away and the server and internet/ apache web server etc also chugg along permanently... He was adamant that the WS should be powered down each night! I recall many years ago at an OS2 meeting that the guru s thought that leaving them on rather than switching a machine on and off every day seemed to keep the CPU, RAM and all those little silicon pathways more happy!??? my fridge has run continuously for 15 years other than blackouts... I can see my suppliers problem really! Anyone have any thoughts on this matter? Graham Norton Neurologist "when I need a hole in the head, I use Windows when I need a window on the brain, I use OS2!" 3============================================== From: "Daryl Pilkington" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:23:23 +1100 (EDT) Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Hi Gra, Gra, There is 2 opposing thoughts on this: 1) My experience has shown equipment left on continously lasts longer. This is also borne-out by your own experiences, Graham, with the Smart-Road equipment. You have a fairly large range of equipment, so your sample space is broad enough to make this conclusion too. There is a fair bit of scientific evidence to support this observation. 2) Continuous operation has an electricity cost component, risk of electrical fire, (as you have experienced), heat, in the case of monitors, which requires air-conditioning. So, I would suggest a compromise:- Servers should be left running permanently, *not* monitors, however. Workstations & printers should be switched-on in the morning & then switched-off at the end of the day, no more, no less. This will reduce your electricity bill & risk of fire during hours the office is unattended, whilst providing a reasonably continuous operational cycle. Regards, Daryl Pilkington //// The PC-Therapist, Business Computing Integration O OS/2 Warp, Redhat Linux, DB2 IBM Certified Systems Expert email: darylpatpc-therapist dot com dot au ICQ: 91914134 Mob: 0425-251-300 4============================================== Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:58:03 +1030 From: Gregory Hicks Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Hi Graham and Daryl :) I concur with the material supplied by Daz on the ON/OFF machines. The main issue will most likely be the ability of the power supplies to handle non-stop running and of course, the incoming power to your system. The most likely cause of power supply destruction is mains "sag", which occurs when the voltage drops by more than 10% of nominal. This lower voltage can cause long term damage to the electronics. The more spectacular short term destruction occurs whenever you have a "spike" appear on the lines. If the spike has sufficient amplitude, it can punch through insulation or through components, leaving a carbonised trail that actually shorts the supply out. Considering you have a shopping centre (and quite large) and a hospital near you, I would suggest your recent problems are from spikes generated by the centres air conditioning and other electrical devices feeding back to the grid and your office. The older supplies were made from "discrete" components which can be more robust than their integrated cousins of today. I suggest that your old supplies died from natural causes, that being aging breakdown of a capacitor eventually leading to the spectacular demise. Looking at your most recent experience, I suggest that the newer supply was hit by a "spike" that quickly dispatched the modern components back to the sand on our beaches. In my experiences in the aviation industry, specifically in the electrical aspect, I would suggest Graham seek to hire a device known as a "Dranitz" Power Line Monitor to seek out information about the state of the mains being supplied. This device is not cheap, but can give you monitored/printed information about the mains voltages for almost every little glitch that can be thrown at your equipment. I have a question for you Graham, hiring the Dranitz Monitor woulod be a last resort to find out what is happening, but do you have adequate filtering/suppression for your office fitted to the electrical supplies? Dr Graham Norton FRACP Neurologist wrote: > Hello all > > We have several aging workstations, indeed I remember vividly that we purchased them at the same time as the release of Win 95 In > anticipation of something! Anyway within months we realised the mistake and migrated to OS2 and eventually Warp Server.. thats the > preamble... > > within the past month, literally 3 machines have died and the power unit has emitted blue flames, smoke and the smell of roasting mouse... > so its new boxes and power units and same old floppy, HD and CD player but new mother boards CPU and 256 RAM.... > > the supplier was horrified to learn (after the first of the new PC boxes power units blew up within 24 hours -and which he replaced obviously) > that we leave all our units powered on and have done really ever since 1995! We turn things off over the xmas long break but other than > logging off , the units chugg away and the server and internet/ apache web server etc also chugg along permanently... He was adamant > that the WS should be powered down each night! > > I recall many years ago at an OS2 meeting that the guru s thought that leaving them on rather than switching a machine on and off every day > seemed to keep the CPU, RAM and all those little silicon pathways more happy!??? > > my fridge has run continuously for 15 years other than blackouts... I can see my suppliers problem really! Anyone have any thoughts on > this matter? > > Graham Norton > Neurologist > > "when I need a hole in the head, I use Windows > when I need a window on the brain, I use OS2!" > 5============================================== Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:45:24 From: Voytek Eymont Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? ** Reply to note from "Daryl Pilkington" Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:23:23 +1100 (EDT) > So, I would suggest a compromise:- > Servers should be left running permanently, *not* monitors, however. > > Workstations & printers should be switched-on in the morning & then > switched-off at the end of the day, no more, no less. I'd agree with above, that's what we do Voytek Eymont SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/ phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 6============================================== Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:49:03 From: Voytek Eymont Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? ** Reply to note from "Dr Graham Norton FRACP Neurologist" Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:46:57 +1000 (EST) > the supplier was horrified to learn (after the first of the new PC boxes power > units blew up within 24 hours -and which he replaced obviously) > that we leave all our units powered on and have done really ever since 1995! > We turn things off over the xmas long break but other than > logging off , the units chugg away and the server and internet/ apache web > server etc also chugg along permanently... He was adamant > that the WS should be powered down each night! subject to what I concurred with earlier, there is nothing wrong with leaving w/s on 24 hours, THOUGH, I'd switch the monitors off. tell your supplier most breakdown occurs when switching stuff on, and, if his equipenet can not cope with being ON 24 hours, look for better equipment Voytek Eymont SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/ phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 7============================================== From: "Ian Manners" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:49:37 +1100 (EDT) Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Hi Graham >I recall many years ago at an OS2 meeting that the guru s thought that leaving them on rather than switching a machine on and off every day >seemed to keep the CPU, RAM and all those little silicon pathways more happy!??? I agree with Daryl, though it also depends on build quality, and Operating System ie, general clones I tell people to turn off every night for two reasons 1) Windows works better when rebooted daily (on the off chance it hasnt BSDed) This also includes WinNT and 2000. 2) Clone power supplies fans, and internal fans are normally the cheapest so dont expect them to last long (anywere from 1 month to 2 years) 3) Depending on your enviroment, consider dust and noise. 4) All moving parts wear out, its called friction. Pick two reasons :) Server, obviously leave on all the time if they are connected to the net, internal office servers SHOULD be of good name brand quality, unless you or someone that is reliable has build them with quality parts. In Kalgoorlie we use to turn our main office server off at the end of the day as it was only for internal use, and I like to turn the Air Cons off at night time. I always turn my monitors off when I'm away from my desk for more than 15-30 minutes. My main PC gets turned on when I get up, turned off when I hit the sack. Of cause its OS/2 so it been many years since its frozen on me (unless I've been messing with things I shouldnt) Glass Monitors use a tube that is a Vacuum Valve, (like the old valve radio sets), the cathode in these tubes have a finite time to live depending on electron emmission, and even in low power mode the cathode still loses part of its cathode plating, so its a toss up between the following 1) power consumtion 2) heat 3) damage from power shock 4) convience Most good quality modern monitors have curved tube heating, which simply means that the heating elements recieve a gentle initial warmup current increasing to slightly above average, then settling to the standard running heater voltage, makes for less stress and longer life. I also have noticed that power shock to monitors is less of a problem that is heat damage to components, so I would always simply turn the monitor off when I walk away from my desk for more than a coffee. Some Monitors also keep a small current flowing in the tube heater, to allow a quicker turn on time. Modern ATX computers also leave one power rail live to the MB, so turning these PC's "off" is only turning most of the power off including the cooling fans, HD's etc etc. I prefer the modern P/S's with the seperate on/off switch on the back which physically disconnects the 240v, and I tell others to turn their PC's off here for extended leave from the premises primarily for safety reasons (you can still blow th e#$% out of a PS). Triacs when left connected to 240v have a bad habit of blowing up after a few years of being hit with surges, I've even had one blow in a wall mounted light dimmer switch, leaving very nice scorch marks on the wood panels..... My house now has dual banks of surge arresters, with a seperate filtered power circuit for the computers. Cheers Ian B Manners http://www.os2site dot com/ 8============================================== From: "Daryl Pilkington" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:48:49 +1100 (EDT) Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Hi all, Greg has described in some detail, something I failed to mention:- destructive electrical noise. This could be mains power fluctuations, or lightning. You could provide mains filters for all your equipment. Sorry, not the $20 surge arrestors you buy at KMart:- I'm talking professional-grade filters like the sort Telstra use on their equipment. These things are made to do a job not a price, which is usually 3 or 4 figures... You have a professional on-line UPS providing filtering for your servers, & some lightning protection for inbound phone lines, although I don't think that protection is configured properly. You need only 1 unprotected inbound phone line to provide a path for the lightning. The earthing of that protection equipment also needs to be done carefully. However, all the gloom & doom aside, look at it from a risk-management perspective. Your servers are pretty well protected, I ordered all the protective equipment for you, its good stuff. However an audit is probably in order to make sure it is configured correctly. By merely switching-off the office equipment overnight, you reduce your risk of electrical fluctuations destroying or causing a fire in equipment whilst the office is unattended. Hardware is cheap, as long as the servers are running, you can quickly replace the printers & workstations, at a cost probably less than protecting it with filters. Regards, Daryl Pilkington //// The PC-Therapist, Business Computing Integration O OS/2 Warp, Redhat Linux, DB2 IBM Certified Systems Expert email: darylpatpc-therapist dot com dot au ICQ: 91914134 Mob: 0425-251-300 9============================================== Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:58 +1000 From: Jim Boyle Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? I would comment 1) If your hardware manufacturer/retailer suggests that the equipment is not suitable for continuous use in a normal home or office environment, I'd tell him that his design standards do not meet my requirements and tell him that I was looking for another supplier. 2) I'd do that. 3) If electronic equipment is designed for normal power fluctuations (i.e. at least allowing for +- 15% on voltage levels for 200 msec duration, and +-7% sustained) then the occasional blip from a high powered motor starting surge shouldn't worry it in the least. Induction motors are particularly vulnerable to sustained low voltages (say -10% for more than 5 minutes), but most fans or other small motors are pretty resistant to voltgae fluctuations or well isolated from mains fluctuations by the power supply circuitry. 4) Modern PC power supplies typically use self regulating high frequency inverter circuits that are quite insensitive to voltage fluctuations. The better ones tolerate anything in the range 105V to 260V without even raising a sweat - or at worst require a simple change to tolerate a choice of ranges centered on something like 100V and 230V. 5) Most software is not as thoroughly tested for complex restart situations as for continouous operation - so YMMV. For example - I have never lost data on an OS/2 restart - and most of those have been caused by power outages - not by software failures. 6) Some software is however, so weakly designed that continuous operation is well nigh impossible due to the frequency of software failures. In such cases, the associated data integrity and system restart logic is frequently extremely simplistic and all "in-flight" work at time of failure can be discarded by the failure and restart process- so users have been conditioned to tolerate a "Restart it - even though your work will be lost" situation. I will not mention what software I have in mind as I type - but it's frequently quoted as the success story of the IT industry. I personally regard it as a tragic confidence trick. My machines typically run 24*7 - and my monitors are "Energy Star compliant" - the main power consuming items are turned off automatically after 15 minutes idle time (avoiding the issue of related power costs). Restarts are very rare indeed and usually .occur when I'm installing poorly designed software, or have an occasional requirement to boot an alternative (W) environment that I refuse to misdescribe as an "Operating System". I have never seen an incident of mains-power-induced damage - even though we've suffered multiple 240V failures - allegedly from lightning, possums, car crashes, and high-voltage transmission failures in the vicinity. Jim Boyle (B.E. Elec) jimboyleatoptushome dot com dot au 10============================================== From: "Dr Graham Norton FRACP Neurologist" Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: [os2genau] Leave on or off? Thanks to all for the responses... I neglected to state that we do indeed switch off the monitors at night and the server is certainly on a UPS box with all the surge protection etc and the monitor is actually hardly ever on for the server as it chuggs away in a 'server room' away from fiddling fingers and eyes... so it seems that the consensus is that I probably should power off the workstations (which I should mention all run OS2 - there is a dual boot machine which runs once a month Win NT for quickbooks...) and the printers and leave the server and internet machines running....as we do at present... again thanks for the thread Graham Norton Neurologist "when I need a hole in the head, I use Windows when I need a window on the brain, I use OS2!"