From: Digest To: "OS/2GenAu Digest" Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:00:06 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600 Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 319 Reply-To: X-List-Unsubscribe: www.os2site.com/list/ ************************************************** Friday 12 April 2002 Number 319 ************************************************** Subjects for today 1 [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Ed Durrant 2 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Nathan Stewart 3 Re: [os2genau] The Malignant Secretary Bug : Gavin Miller" 4 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : John Angelico" 5 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Voytek Eymont 6 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Paul Smedley" 7 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Gregory Hicks 8 Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? : Ed Durrant **= Email 1 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:29:05 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. If with a computer, software is loaded onto the harddisk, the device HAS been used and therefore should be considered as second-hand. In some countries of the world, second hand products do not have to incur a purchase/GST/VAT/MWsT tax or a lower tax is levied. Therefore for pre-loaded computers (Windows pre-loads being the most common) the customer should be paying less for the system and the relevant goverments receiving less tax. What do you all think ? Cheers/2 Ed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 2 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:53:35 +1000 From: Nathan Stewart Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? Nice try Ed, but that would be like saying that a new car is "used" because it was driven to the showroom and the radio has been played. (Besides, we don't want to make Windows loaded computers less expensive do we?) Regards, Nathan Stewart Vision Development, Brisbane. Ed Durrant wrote: >By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. > >If with a computer, software is loaded onto the harddisk, the device HAS >been >used and therefore should be considered as second-hand. > >In some countries of the world, second hand products do not have to incur a >purchase/GST/VAT/MWsT tax or a lower tax is levied. Therefore for pre-loaded >computers (Windows pre-loads being the most common) the customer should be >paying less for the system and the relevant goverments receiving less tax. > >What do you all think ? > >Cheers/2 > >Ed. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 3 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:53:06 +1100 (EDT) From: "Gavin Miller" Subject: Re: [os2genau] The Malignant Secretary Bug Hi Graham How is she getting the WC down the bottom? She'd have to be going into it's properties to choose where she wanted it to go. I know I can't drag my WC around. I can't say I've ever had Ed's problem with a mouse, but a dirty mouse has done simmilar things on the Windoze systems at work. Try selecting all the desktop objects and selecting lock in place = yes by right clicking. If things are still moving around like she says they are, then maybe Ed might have something (or she's a psychic spoon bender). Cheers Gavin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 4 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:56:48 +1000 (EST) From: "John Angelico" Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:53:35 +1000, Nathan Stewart wrote: Hi Ed. I have to agree with Nathan here. Actually your definition is a good demonstration of the problem of everyday usage versus what has become "custom of the trade" and therefore has acquired a legal status. It is custom of the trade to run cars in for up to 1000km or so before a customer gets near it. I think engiineers call it "shakedown testing" in some cases (I'm a humble bean-counter so I am not supposed to know what the Tonka-toys boys do). It is also custom of the trade to run a computer in order to pre-load stuff. New in a legal sense means not used for its primary purpose - usually by a final consumer (you and me and him). Now if a dealer had preloaded Win, then run the machine in his retail shop for a week as a demo for customers or for his own work, I would call *that* used because that is the purpose of a computer. Ditto for a car - if a dealer registers a car and gives demo drives to potential buyers for a week or a month, lets his sales reps drive it home etc. I would say that is used. Sad to say we can't get any dough back off the government this way. Best regards John Angelico OS/2 SIG talldadatmelbpc dot org dot au or talldadatkepl dot com dot au ____________________________________________ >Nice try Ed, but that would be like saying that a new car is "used" >because it was driven to the showroom and the radio has been played. >(Besides, we don't want to make Windows loaded computers less expensive >do we?) > >Regards, > >Nathan Stewart >Vision Development, Brisbane. > >Ed Durrant wrote: > >>By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. >> >>If with a computer, software is loaded onto the harddisk, the device HAS >>been >>used and therefore should be considered as second-hand. >> >>In some countries of the world, second hand products do not have to incur a >>purchase/GST/VAT/MWsT tax or a lower tax is levied. Therefore for pre-loaded >>computers (Windows pre-loads being the most common) the customer should be >>paying less for the system and the relevant goverments receiving less tax. >> >>What do you all think ? >> >>Cheers/2 >> >>Ed. >> >> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 5 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:10:33 From: Voytek Eymont Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? ** Reply to note from "John Angelico" Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:56:48 +1000 (EST) > Ditto for a car - if a dealer registers a car and gives demo drives to > potential buyers for a week or a month, lets his sales reps drive it home > etc. I would say that is used. 'registers' is the key word: if he registers, it's 2nd hand. that why dealers have 'trade plates'... Voytek Eymont SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/ phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 6 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:23:57 +1100 From: "Paul Smedley" Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? And don't forget a new car isn't used until it has something like 160km on the clock!! Regards, Paul. On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:53:35 +1000, Nathan Stewart wrote: >Nice try Ed, but that would be like saying that a new car is "used" >because it was driven to the showroom and the radio has been played. >(Besides, we don't want to make Windows loaded computers less expensive >do we?) > >Regards, > >Nathan Stewart >Vision Development, Brisbane. > >Ed Durrant wrote: > >>By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. >> >>If with a computer, software is loaded onto the harddisk, the device HAS >>been >>used and therefore should be considered as second-hand. >> >>In some countries of the world, second hand products do not have to incur a >>purchase/GST/VAT/MWsT tax or a lower tax is levied. Therefore for pre-loaded >>computers (Windows pre-loads being the most common) the customer should be >>paying less for the system and the relevant goverments receiving less tax. >> >>What do you all think ? >> >>Cheers/2 >> >>Ed. >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 7 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:30:10 +0930 From: Gregory Hicks Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------88FDFD545EC37C70E54D9F2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ed, Nathan Stewart wrote: > Nice try Ed, but that would be like saying that a new car is "used" > because it was driven to the showroom and the radio has been played. > (Besides, we don't want to make Windows loaded computers less expensive > do we?) > > Regards, > > Nathan Stewart > Vision Development, Brisbane. > > Ed Durrant wrote: > > >By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. > > > well, there is the matter of quality control too. All the cars at Holden just up the road from me are tested, which by your definition makes them used. I would rather buy a new car that has been for a few blocks than never started. Same goes for nearly everything you buy. Fridges, washing machines, toasters etc. all get a quick "dry" run to ensure that they work. So, nice try, but I think you would not succeed if you trued that -- cheers Gregory Hicks Q48036388 3rd Year CQU BIT "I took a bigger challenge - study externally and long distance" --------------88FDFD545EC37C70E54D9F2C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="ghicks.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gregory Hicks Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ghicks.vcf" begin:vcard n:Hicks;Gregory x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:ghicksatihug dot com dot au fn:Gregory Hicks end:vcard --------------88FDFD545EC37C70E54D9F2C-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 8 ==========================** Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:31:39 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: [os2genau] Is your new PC actually used/second hand ? I'd didn't want to put it in my earlier email but I also considered the quality control issue and I believe that is acceptable. We need electrical products to go through a safety check, so that's OK. As for the car, if it is driven from the factory to the garage, rather than transported on a truck, then yes, by definition it is used ! As for windows PCs getting cheaper, which goverment in the world is going to accept reduced tax income ? If proved in court, it would be made illegal for a company to pre-load software on a PC without a contractual agreement with the purchaser, for which the purchaser will pay services tax (often higher than simple purchase tax). Ed. Gregory Hicks wrote: > > Hi Ed, > > Nathan Stewart wrote: > > > Nice try Ed, but that would be like saying that a new car is "used" > > because it was driven to the showroom and the radio has been played. > > (Besides, we don't want to make Windows loaded computers less expensive > > do we?) > > > > Regards, > > > > Nathan Stewart > > Vision Development, Brisbane. > > > > Ed Durrant wrote: > > > > >By definition a new product has not been used before a customer receives it. > > > > > > > well, there is the matter of quality control too. All the cars at Holden just up the > road from me are tested, which by your definition makes them used. > > I would rather buy a new car that has been for a few blocks than never started. Same > goes for nearly everything you buy. Fridges, washing machines, toasters etc. all get a > quick "dry" run to ensure that they work. > > So, nice try, but I think you would not succeed if you trued that > > -- > > cheers > > Gregory Hicks > Q48036388 3rd Year CQU BIT > > "I took a bigger challenge - study externally and long distance" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------