From: Digest To: "OS/2GenAu Digest" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 00:00:11 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600 Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 328 Reply-To: X-List-Unsubscribe: www.os2site.com/list/ ************************************************** Monday 22 April 2002 Number 328 ************************************************** Subjects for today 1 [os2genau] Server news : Ian Manners" 2 [os2genau] REMINDER - Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting : Ian Manners" 3 [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Daryl Pilkington" 4 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Kris Steenhaut 5 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Ian Manners" 6 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Ed Durrant 7 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Voytek Eymont 8 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Ed Durrant 9 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Busine : Trevor Clarke 10 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Ed Durrant 11 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Kris Steenhaut 12 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Kris Steenhaut 13 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : John Angelico" 14 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Ed Durrant 15 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : Daryl Pilkington" 16 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : Kris Steenhaut 17 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : voytek" 18 Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) : voytek" 19 [os2genau] Voice Type State of the Art? : John Angelico" 20 Re: [os2genau] Voice Type State of the Art? : voytek" 21 Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business : madodelatptdprolog dot net **= Email 1 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:47:18 +1000 (EST) From: "Ian Manners" Subject: [os2genau] Server news Hi everyone The time came to finally upgrade the OS/2 Site server, an old IBM VP100 486DX4/100, with SCSI card/drives and 128Mb RAM. It's been running http://www.os2site dot com/ http://www./ http://www.ecs-site dot com/ Software :- OS/2 Warp 4 FixPack 15, TCP/IP v4.3 Weasel Mailserver MajorMajor List Server Apache Web Server FTPServer Cron Perl MySQL The new server is :- Pentium III - 600Mhz, (Case has 4 fans) 384Mb RAM Adaptec AHA-2940U/UW Dual SCSI Adapter 1 x IBM DNES-309170W 9Gb Harddisk 2 x IBM DNES-318350W 18Gb Harddisk's With all the old software except its FP16. http://www.os2site dot com/pages/techinfo.html The old 486 has been struggling to reindex the site, not to mention a few other things. Still, not bad for a computer I bought in 1993, so it almost made 10 years of faithful service but not quite. Lets see how long I can make this server run for ;-) I'd like to see a different Operating System run all the software above, and reindex 10Gb of software every 3 hours. Cheers Ian B Manners http://www.os2site dot com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 2 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 04:50:07 +1000 (EST) From: "Ian Manners" Subject: [os2genau] REMINDER - Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 Time: 6:30PM - 9:30PM Place: Melbourne PC Group Victoria, Australia. The Monthly Meeting of Melbourne OS/2 SIG Normally held the fourth Tuesday of each month. "Calendar" of events can be found via the list page. Cheers Ian B Manners http://www.os2site dot com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 3 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:08:30 +1000 (EST) From: "Daryl Pilkington" Subject: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) Hi Ian, Had the pleasure to work with M$ small business server last week. This consists of: Windows 2000 Advanced Server, which has some pretty neat servers all bundled together: SQL ISA Exchange Active Directory .... It was all running on a Dell PowerEdge 1400SC server: +900MHz CPU 256MB RAM 160MHz Adaptec SCSI. Thing ran like a dog, just trying to configure it. Still haven't been able to work-out how to get DB2 installed on it. Will fdisk the drive & install RedHat v7.2, Samba v2.3 & DB2 v7.2. People were telling me W2k is much better, but I suppose I've been using "much better" for years so my idea of much better isn't the same as Windows users. Regards, Daryl Pilkington //// The PC-Therapist, Business Computing Integration O OS/2 Warp, Redhat Linux, DB2 IBM Certified Systems Expert email: darylpatpc-therapist dot com dot au Mob: 0425-251-300 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 4 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 01:49:17 +0200 From: Kris Steenhaut Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business amoht schreef: > > I checked the Mensys site and they are still advertising Warp 4 and Warp 3 so has anyone tried purchasing > from them? > Yes if the item are an overstock. No if they have to order the packages themselves from Big Blue. Guys, please face it: Big Blue doesn't sell OS/2 anymore. -- Groeten uit Gent, Kris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 5 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:34:24 +1000 (EST) From: "Ian Manners" Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) Hi Daryl >Had the pleasure to work with M$ small business server last week. Been there, done that, spent about a month trying to figure out what I had setup wrong before being convinced its "normal" ! >This consists of: >Windows 2000 Advanced Server, which has some pretty neat servers all >bundled together: >SQL >ISA >Exchange >Active Directory >... Hey, dont forget IIS ;-) >It was all running on a Dell PowerEdge 1400SC server: >+900MHz CPU >256MB RAM >160MHz Adaptec SCSI. The one I did was running on an IBM Netfinity PIII-500 with 768Mb RAM, all SCSI but not the 160Mhz Adaptec card. And Exchange is a dog to setup as something secure. Why cant they make something like Weasel, ZxMail, or InetServer, or even Lotus Domino, all so much easier to setup (logical is the word I'm looking for). >Thing ran like a dog, just trying to configure it. Windows2000 AS, never :-| >Still haven't been able to work-out how to get DB2 installed on it. >Will fdisk the drive & install RedHat v7.2, Samba v2.3 & DB2 v7.2. Sounds like a better way to go :) >People were telling me W2k is much better, but I suppose I've been >using "much better" for years so my idea of much better isn't the same >as Windows users. History repeats itself, and everytime I give the benefit of a new product, in the hope that Microsoft are nolonger focusing on being mainly a marketing company. Cheers Ian B Manners http://www.os2site dot com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 6 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:47:51 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) Ah but Daryl you're approaching this all wrong !! Before you go to actually install a Windows 2000 Server, you need to attend, at the very least 2 courses for the base operating system installation. Now SQL Server that'd be another course, oh yes to hook it to the network, that's another course. Hey guess what active directory and exchange also have their own courses. Hmm by the time you get the relevant training to do this install, you've had all the training to become a Microsoft Certified Stuffed Egg (MCSE). Guess who creates and licences the courses (at about $4-500 each if you get them at a discount rate), not to mention the exams at $245 (no discounts). YES The man wins the fluffy Duck !! You're right it's our old friends Microsoft again. Cheers/2 Ed. P.S. (there was some irony intended in the text). Daryl Pilkington wrote: > > Hi Ian, > > Had the pleasure to work with M$ small business server last week. > > This consists of: > Windows 2000 Advanced Server, which has some pretty neat servers all > bundled together: > SQL > ISA > Exchange > Active Directory > ... > > It was all running on a Dell PowerEdge 1400SC server: > +900MHz CPU > 256MB RAM > 160MHz Adaptec SCSI. > > Thing ran like a dog, just trying to configure it. > > Still haven't been able to work-out how to get DB2 installed on it. > Will fdisk the drive & install RedHat v7.2, Samba v2.3 & DB2 v7.2. > > People were telling me W2k is much better, but I suppose I've been > using "much better" for years so my idea of much better isn't the same > as Windows users. > > Regards, > > Daryl Pilkington > > //// The PC-Therapist, Business Computing Integration > O \_/ > OS/2 Warp, Redhat Linux, DB2 > IBM Certified Systems Expert > > email: darylpatpc-therapist dot com dot au > Mob: 0425-251-300 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 7 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:48:04 From: Voytek Eymont Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) ** Reply to note from "Ian Manners" Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:34:24 +1000 (EST) > >People were telling me W2k is much better, but I suppose I've been > >using "much better" for years so my idea of much better isn't the same > >as Windows users. > > History repeats itself, and everytime I give the benefit of a new > product, in the hope that Microsoft are nolonger focusing on being > mainly a marketing company. XP is much better, but, the next version will be better still.... if only they could make it 'good enough', this is what my PHP guy told me today: ----- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:53:43 +1000 From: Ray Cauchi Subject: new windows feature hey I have just discovered a hidden feature in winXP when you are in the middle of uploading a MySQL dump that is taking some time, the Micro$oft Auto System Reboot kicks in.... WinXP will restart itself when you least want it to, of its own accord and for no apparent reason... "its such a useful feature....its the sole reason why I spent $600 on my shiny new OS" Voytek Eymont SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/ phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 8 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:59:28 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business Ok, without comment, here is the OFFICIAL answer from IBM OS/2 Marketting : Question 1. Do IBM still sell OS/2 Products ? Answer 1. *YES*. We have not withdrawn from marketing OS/2 Warp V4, OS/2 Warp Server for e-business or IBM WorkSpace On-Demand. Question 2. As far as I know there has been no notice of end-of-life of these base products (if I'm wrong on this, could you please point me to the relevant document please). Answer 2. *Correct*. IBM has not made any announcements relative to the end-of-life of these base products. We have placed a document on the Web that deals with the OS/2 Strategy. It can be accessed through the Software Choice Website at: http://www-4.ibm dot com/software/os/warp/swchoice/ Questions 3 & 4. How does a customer purchase the following products: How does a reseller purchase the following products: OS/2 Warp 4 Client (full and upgrade) OS/2 Warp 4 Client Additional licence Workspace On-Demand (full and upgrade) Workspace On-Demand Additional Licence Warp Server for e-Business Answer to 3 & 4. This should be business as usual. We have not withdrawn the products and therefore they should be readily available through all original established/announced sales and distribution channels. (ED: I believe that the problem lies in handling of low volume orders by distributors. I have raised this question now with OS/2 marketting and will let you all know the reply when I receive it.) Cheers/2 Ed. Kris Steenhaut wrote: > > amoht schreef: > > > > > I checked the Mensys site and they are still advertising Warp 4 and Warp 3 so has anyone tried purchasing > > from them? > > > > Yes if the item are an overstock. No if they have to order the packages themselves from Big Blue. Guys, > please face it: Big Blue doesn't sell OS/2 anymore. > > -- > Groeten uit Gent, > > Kris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 9 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:02:50 +1000 From: Trevor Clarke Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Busine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain "IBM OS/2 Marketing" Does such a division still exist? Obviously a talented bunch of people!!! > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Durrant [SMTP:edurrantatbigpond dot net dot au] > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 4:59 PM > To: os2genauatos2 dot org dot au > Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for > e-Business > > Ok, without comment, here is the OFFICIAL answer from IBM OS/2 Marketting > : > > Question 1. Do IBM still sell OS/2 Products ? > Answer 1. *YES*. We have not withdrawn from marketing OS/2 Warp V4, > OS/2 > Warp Server for e-business or IBM WorkSpace On-Demand. > > Question 2. As far as I know there has been no notice of end-of-life of > these base products (if I'm wrong on this, could you please point me > to the relevant document please). > Answer 2. *Correct*. IBM has not made any announcements relative to > the > end-of-life of these base products. We have placed a document on the > Web > that deals with the OS/2 Strategy. It can be accessed through the > Software Choice Website at: > http://www-4.ibm dot com/software/os/warp/swchoice/ > > Questions 3 & 4. How does a customer purchase the following products: > How does a reseller purchase the following products: > OS/2 Warp 4 Client (full and upgrade) > OS/2 Warp 4 Client Additional licence > Workspace On-Demand (full and upgrade) > Workspace On-Demand Additional Licence > Warp Server for e-Business > Answer to 3 & 4. This should be business as usual. We have not > withdrawn > the products and therefore they should be readily available through > all > original established/announced sales and distribution channels. > > > (ED: I believe that the problem lies in handling of low volume orders > by > distributors. I have raised this question now with OS/2 marketting and > will > let you all know the reply when I receive it.) > > Cheers/2 > > Ed. > > > Kris Steenhaut wrote: > > > > amoht schreef: > > > > > > > > I checked the Mensys site and they are still advertising Warp 4 and > Warp 3 so has anyone tried purchasing > > > from them? > > > > > > > Yes if the item are an overstock. No if they have to order the packages > themselves from Big Blue. Guys, > > please face it: Big Blue doesn't sell OS/2 anymore. > > > > -- > > Groeten uit Gent, > > > > Kris > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; name="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" Slater & Gordon Solicitors - http://www.slatergordon dot com dot au Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for the delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by return email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 10 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:40 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) Yes you're right Voytek, the reboot IS intentional, not a bug. If XP considers the system has frozen (or at least will freeze soon), it can restart the OS without prompting the user. I call this "dumb user mode" although as far as I know there's no "advanced user mode" but hey you admit yourself you payed $600 for the product so ...... (the last paragraph is just a joke, no personal comment intended) Cheers/2 Ed. Voytek Eymont wrote: > > ** Reply to note from "Ian Manners" Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:34:24 +1000 (EST) > > > >People were telling me W2k is much better, but I suppose I've been > > >using "much better" for years so my idea of much better isn't the same > > >as Windows users. > > > > History repeats itself, and everytime I give the benefit of a new > > product, in the hope that Microsoft are nolonger focusing on being > > mainly a marketing company. > > XP is much better, but, the next version will be better still.... > > if only they could make it 'good enough', this is what my PHP guy told me > today: > > ----- > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:53:43 +1000 > From: Ray Cauchi > Subject: new windows feature > > hey > > I have just discovered a hidden feature in winXP > > when you are in the middle of uploading a MySQL dump that is taking some > time, the Micro$oft Auto System Reboot kicks in.... > > WinXP will restart itself when you least want it to, of its own accord and > for no apparent reason... > > "its such a useful feature....its the sole reason why I spent $600 on my > shiny new OS" > > > Voytek Eymont > SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd > http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/ > phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 11 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:39:49 +0200 From: Kris Steenhaut Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business Ed Durrant schreef: > that deals with the OS/2 Strategy. It can be accessed through the > Software Choice Website at: > http://www-4.ibm dot com/software/os/warp/swchoice/ > This whole site is about *support*, not about *to promote*. -- Groeten uit Gent, Kris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 12 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:37:27 +0200 From: Kris Steenhaut Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business Ed Durrant schreef: > Ok, without comment, here is the OFFICIAL answer from IBM OS/2 Marketting : > Sorry Ed, but you'll have to reveal at least the name and function of this *OFFICIAL* spokesman/woman. I've seen these robotized answers to many times to consider it as something serious. -- Groeten uit Gent, Kris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 13 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:51:28 +1000 (EST) From: "John Angelico" Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 16:47:51 +1000, Ed Durrant wrote: > >P.S. (there was some irony intended in the text). What?? REALLY?? Ed I would never have noticed if you hadn't said so... Best regards John Angelico OS/2 SIG talldadatmelbpc dot org dot au or talldadatkepl dot com dot au -------------------------------------------- PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico .... Windows 2000: Microsoft OS/2 version 5 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 14 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:40:57 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business The reply is from Mr. Armando Flores, OS/2 Market manager, IBM Austin, Texas. Kris Steenhaut wrote: > > Sorry Ed, but you'll have to reveal at least the name and function of this *OFFICIAL* spokesman/woman. > > I've seen these robotized answers to many times to consider it as something serious. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 15 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:12:23 +1000 (EST) From: "Daryl Pilkington" Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) Hi, This feature can be turned-off in W2k. This feature can be turned-on in OS/2 :) > >From: Ray Cauchi >Subject: new windows feature > >I have just discovered a hidden feature in winXP > >when you are in the middle of uploading a MySQL dump that is taking some >time, the Micro$oft Auto System Reboot kicks in.... > >WinXP will restart itself when you least want it to, of its own accord and >for no apparent reason... > >"its such a useful feature....its the sole reason why I spent $600 on my >shiny new OS" > SNIP > Regards, Daryl Pilkington //// The PC-Therapist, Business Computing Integration O OS/2 Warp, Redhat Linux, DB2 IBM Certified Systems Expert email: darylpatpc-therapist dot com dot au Mob: 0425-251-300 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 16 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:01:29 +0200 From: Kris Steenhaut Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business Ed Durrant schreef: > The reply is from Mr. Armando Flores, OS/2 Market manager, IBM Austin, > Texas. > And his email addrees is: ........... -- Groeten uit Gent, Kris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 17 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:53:53 +1000 From: "voytek" Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:37:27 +0200, Kris Steenhaut wrote: and the winner for the oxymoron competition is: >IBM OS/2 Marketing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 18 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:05:04 +1000 From: "voytek" Subject: Re: [os2genau] M$ Small Business Server (was Server news) On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:13:40 +1000, Ed Durrant wrote: >I call this "dumb user mode" although as far as I know there's no "advanced >user mode" but hey you admit yourself you payed $600 for the product so Ed, pls see my mssg, I was FORWARDING a users' comment. I would not purchase a MS operating system (except when I bought and IBM thinkpad with ms bundled...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 19 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:14:39 +1000 (EST) From: "John Angelico" Subject: [os2genau] Voice Type State of the Art? Hello, all SIG list'ers. In our voluntary capacity as members of a local historical society (and you all thought I was going to be hysterical - taraa!) my family has an opportunity to er, show off OS/2 voice capabilities against some ordinary competition from Win 95/98 with Dragon and/or ViaVoice. The mission, should we choose to accept it, is to transcribe a quantity of oral history tape recordings. They are on cassette tape and therefore are of average to fair quality continuous speech by a wide variety of Australian voices, usually older than average. We currently have sound built into a Thinkpad 760EL model with P-133 chip and a 2Gb hdd shared with Win95 . Would anyone care to point me towards the VoiceType current state of play? Are there any gotchas to be concerned about - sound cards, input source etc? Would the TalkBack/2 Text to Speech system offer any possibilities in reverse? ________ (ĝUĝ) On the lookout for replies... Best regards John Angelico OS/2 SIG talldadatmelbpc dot org dot au or talldadatkepl dot com dot au -------------------------------------------- PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico .... Those who thrive on adversity are doing it wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 20 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:31:08 +1000 From: "voytek" Subject: Re: [os2genau] Voice Type State of the Art? On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:14:39 +1000 (EST), John Angelico wrote: >In our voluntary capacity as members of a local historical society did the OS/2 SIG change it's name ? g,d&r ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 21 ==========================** Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:49:06 -0400 From: madodelatptdprolog dot net Subject: Re: [os2genau] Purchasing OS/2 Warp 4 or Warp Server for e-Business In <20020422225651-39259-7atsbt dot net dot au>, on 04/22/02 at 10:53 PM, "voytek" said: >On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:37:27 +0200, Kris Steenhaut wrote: >and the winner for the oxymoron competition is: >>IBM OS/2 Marketing That would be a photo finish with "Microsoft Quality Control" Mark -- From the OS/2 Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2002, Come to the home of OS/2 - Austin, Texas http://www.warpstock dot org For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice dot org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------