From: Digest To: "OS/2GenAu Digest" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:02:04 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600 Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 634 Reply-To: X-List-Unsubscribe: www.os2site.com/list/ ************************************************** Thursday 05 June 2003 Number 634 ************************************************** Subjects for today 1 iPrimus personal help : Ian Manners" 2 Re: iPrimus personal help : Ed Durrant 3 Re: iPrimus personal help : Paul Smedley" 4 eCS install : Dennis Nolan 5 Re: iPrimus personal help : Mike O'Connor" 6 Re: eCS install : Robert Traynor (BobT)" 7 Re: iPrimus personal help : Mike O'Connor" 8 Re: eCS install : Mike O'Connor" 9 Re: eCS install : Dennis Nolan 10 Re: eCS install : Ed Durrant 11 Re: eCS install : Ed Durrant 12 Re: ADSL vs Cable (was: iPrimus personal help) : Ed Durrant 13 Re: ADSL vs Cable (was: iPrimus personal help) : Paul Smedley" 14 Re: eCS install : Mike O'Connor" **= Email 1 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 02:03:26 +1000 (EST) From: "Ian Manners" Subject: iPrimus personal help Hi all Sorry to hear you had a problem with iPrimus Dennis, if there are any other iPrimus users on the list, make note that I'm more than happy to help with any problems you might have, personally. Just send me an offlist email, billing, setup, whatever, I'm your man. In case you dont know, I now work for Primus, and they are experiencing a rather large increase in users over the past three months, I will also be the first to tell you that the tech support is really bad in the evenings. Ring between 12noon and 5pm (hint). I'm normally there from 1500Hrs to about 2400 Hrs. Or, send me an email with the header "iprimus help". You can also simply ring iPrimus, select sales and leave a message for me to call you back, they all know me as the dude with the cowboy hat. And selecting sales is the quickest way to get through, most of the time anyway, you know what companies are like, also happy to cancel iPrimus accounts for people as well :-) Tech Support lines in a lot of companies are being tied up by people with email and virus problems, sigh, and yes, they all use Windows, and Outlook Express, sigh..... not mentioning any company names here but primus also seem to have had some mysterious problems with the dialup number dropping off the face of the earth for, um, that same largish company that, you know, sort of has a monopoly, and we aint the only ones. AND dont get me started on that same companies wholesale ADSL. http://whirlpool dot net dot au/ Apologies for the rant.... Cheers Ian B Manners http://www.os2site dot com/ To err is human, to forgive ... 50 dollars. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 2 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 06:29:41 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: iPrimus personal help To add to your "Rant" - that same "big companies" Broadband cable service was down the whole of yesterday evening AGAIN. So far this year, May was the ONLY month it hasn't gone down. It had 100% up-time the previous year, so someone's "fiddling" where they shouldn't ! Cheers/2 Ed. Ian Manners wrote: > Hi all > > not mentioning any company names here but primus also seem > to have had some mysterious problems with the dialup number > dropping off the face of the earth for, um, that same largish > company that, you know, sort of has a monopoly, and we > aint the only ones. AND dont get me started on that same > companies wholesale ADSL. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 3 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:08:28 +0950 (CST) From: "Paul Smedley" Subject: Re: iPrimus personal help Hiya Ed, On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 06:29:41 +1000, Ed Durrant wrote: >To add to your "Rant" - that same "big companies" Broadband cable service was down the >whole of yesterday evening AGAIN. So far this year, May was the ONLY month it hasn't >gone down. It had 100% up-time the previous year, so someone's "fiddling" where they >shouldn't ! Yeah my neighbour was bitching about how bad Bigpond Cable has been this year. We both got cable internet at around the same time - he's till on it (but has now bought an ADSL modem and is ready to changeover), and I've been on Internode ADSL since July last year. Whilst I was on Cable there were like 2 outages in 15 months - USED to be rock solid... Cheers, Paul. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 4 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000 From: Dennis Nolan Subject: eCS install New day, New Chapter. As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and the following error message. The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on line 125 of the config.sys file. Line 125 is ignored. The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the system. If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. Any advice would be welcome Regards Dennis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 5 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:40:07 +1100 From: "Mike O'Connor" Subject: Re: iPrimus personal help Ian Manners wrote: >Hi all > >Sorry to hear you had a problem with iPrimus Dennis, if there >are any other iPrimus users on the list, make note that I'm more >than happy to help with any problems you might have, personally. > >Just send me an offlist email, billing, setup, whatever, I'm your man. > >In case you dont know, I now work for Primus, and they are experiencing >a rather large increase in users over the past three months, I will also >be the first to tell you that the tech support is really bad in the evenings. >Ring between 12noon and 5pm (hint). > >I'm normally there from 1500Hrs to about 2400 Hrs. > >Or, send me an email with the header "iprimus help". You can also >simply ring iPrimus, select sales and leave a message for me to >call you back, they all know me as the dude with the cowboy hat. >And selecting sales is the quickest way to get through, most of >the time anyway, you know what companies are like, also >happy to cancel iPrimus accounts for people as well :-) > >Tech Support lines in a lot of companies are being tied up by >people with email and virus problems, sigh, and yes, they all >use Windows, and Outlook Express, sigh..... > >not mentioning any company names here but primus also seem >to have had some mysterious problems with the dialup number >dropping off the face of the earth for, um, that same largish >company that, you know, sort of has a monopoly, and we >aint the only ones. AND dont get me started on that same >companies wholesale ADSL. > >http://whirlpool dot net dot au/ > >Apologies for the rant.... > > Hi Ian, [Well deserved rant] I was having a go at DoDo last Monday and on the previous Monday & Tuesday, when there were 3 hour outages on each occasion on dial-up. My diallers - both Injoy and eCSCoNet[ISDNPM] both told me there were "authentication" problems. I'm on that certain company's ISDN service so maybe it wasn't really DoDo after all?? -- Regards, Mike Failed the exam for -------------------- MCSE - Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert -------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 6 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:43:34 +1000 From: "Robert Traynor (BobT)" Subject: Re: eCS install Hi Dennis, How many CD type drives do you have.? Any zip drives.? These will require drive letters and you may have chosen too high a drive letter X:. In sufficient system description, details please. Suggestion ONE. Try a SLIGHTLY lower one. Second suggestion. HIDE some of the EXISTING drives from eCS to bring down your drive letters and let the installer chose its own standard range of drive letters. AFTER installation, reassign (or ADD) drive letters to your hearts' content. Regards, Robert Traynor (BobT). 5 June 2003 17:42 On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000, Dennis Nolan wrote: > New day, New Chapter. > > As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. > > Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the > install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z > > Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages > that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and > the following error message. > > The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on > line 125 of the config.sys file. > > Line 125 is ignored. > > The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the > system. > > If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, > and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the > screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. > > > Any advice would be welcome > > Regards > Dennis. ,-._|\ Robert Traynor (BobT) / Oz \ email rtraynor at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au \_,--.x/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 7 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:00:24 +1100 From: "Mike O'Connor" Subject: Re: iPrimus personal help Ed Durrant wrote: >To add to your "Rant" - that same "big companies" Broadband cable service was down the >whole of yesterday evening AGAIN. So far this year, May was the ONLY month it hasn't >gone down. It had 100% up-time the previous year, so someone's "fiddling" where they >shouldn't ! > >Cheers/2 > >Ed. > >Ian Manners wrote: > >>Hi all >> >>not mentioning any company names here but primus also seem >>to have had some mysterious problems with the dialup number >>dropping off the face of the earth for, um, that same largish >>company that, you know, sort of has a monopoly, and we >>aint the only ones. AND dont get me started on that same >>companies wholesale ADSL. >> >> Hi Ed, Attempting to access that same company's Online Telephone Billing site, specifically to reinstate my paper-bill in addition to online access, as the former drops out of existence 4 months after signing up for e-billing, unless reinstatement requested, I was confronted with a whole lot of greyed-out menus, and inability to load a lot of the linked pages. This persisted for over 12 hours at which time I was able to speak in person with a consultant, who after having me repeat the procedure unsuccessfully yet again, finally had to run the procedure internally herself. Note that during the entire episode that company's Online Network Status page was all GREEN LEDs - except for a couple of the dozen or so items, that were unrelated - indicating "minor" problems. So don't believe what they say, only what they do. For any who don't know it - here's a link; -- Regards, Mike Failed the exam for -------------------- MCSE - Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert -------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 8 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:20:31 +1100 From: "Mike O'Connor" Subject: Re: eCS install Robert Traynor (BobT) wrote: >Hi Dennis, > >How many CD type drives do you have.? >Any zip drives.? > >These will require drive letters and you may have chosen too high >a drive letter X:. >In sufficient system description, details please. > >Suggestion ONE. >Try a SLIGHTLY lower one. > >Second suggestion. HIDE some of the EXISTING drives from eCS to bring >down your drive letters and let the installer chose its own standard >range of drive letters. > >AFTER installation, reassign (or ADD) drive letters to your >hearts' content. > >Regards, >Robert Traynor (BobT). >5 June 2003 17:42 > >On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000, Dennis Nolan wrote: > >>New day, New Chapter. >> >>As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. >> >>Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the >>install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z >> >>Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages >>that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and >>the following error message. >> >>The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on >>line 125 of the config.sys file. >> >>Line 125 is ignored. >> >>The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the >>system. >> >>If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, >>and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the >>screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. >> >>Any advice would be welcome >> >> Hi Denis & Bob, I had exactly the same problem as Denis, when I tried to reassign [as I was able to do with eCs 1.0] Z: to the CD, and RAMDISK to another letter. eventually I settled for Y and got Denis's message. mine was only for preference, as I always have the CD at Z, eventually. So i think option 2 is the way to go, hide a visible R. I had forgotten tthat I'd had this problem on boot - thanks for reminding me Denis. -- Regards, Mike Failed the exam for -------------------- MCSE - Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert -------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 9 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:31:17 +1000 From: Dennis Nolan Subject: Re: eCS install Hi Rob Good point I have a CDROM as the Master device on IDE_0 A CDRWROM as the Master device on IDE_1 The SCSI drive is divided into the following partitions C: E: F: R: & T: The CDROM is mapped to D: by LVM, and cannot be changed, though the installer does set it to Y: However I have just taken note of you comments and re attempted with the Reserved Drive set to U, I also continued with Alt F4 Here are the results CDFS.IFS IBMCDROM.DMD \LOCATECD.SYS \ECS\BOOT\UNICODE This brought up a SYS1719 Message, something about it not being a valid device driver JFS.IFS TESTCFG.SYS \ECS\BOOT\DOS.SYS \ECS\BOOT\PMDD.SYS \ECS\BOOT\POINTDD.SYS \ECS\BOOT\MOUSE.SYS The 3 USB related drivers I skipped ERASEFIL.SYS CMD.EXE CMD.EXE CMD.EXE Prepareing to start installer SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . Z:\PMSHELL.EXE The file PMWP couldnt be found etc Regards Dennis. "Robert Traynor (BobT)" wrote: > Hi Dennis, > > How many CD type drives do you have.? > Any zip drives.? > > These will require drive letters and you may have chosen too high > a drive letter X:. > In sufficient system description, details please. > > Suggestion ONE. > Try a SLIGHTLY lower one. > > Second suggestion. HIDE some of the EXISTING drives from eCS to bring > down your drive letters and let the installer chose its own standard > range of drive letters. > > AFTER installation, reassign (or ADD) drive letters to your > hearts' content. > > Regards, > Robert Traynor (BobT). > 5 June 2003 17:42 > > On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000, Dennis Nolan wrote: > > > New day, New Chapter. > > > > As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. > > > > Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the > > install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z > > > > Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages > > that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and > > the following error message. > > > > The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on > > line 125 of the config.sys file. > > > > Line 125 is ignored. > > > > The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the > > system. > > > > If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, > > and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the > > screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. > > > > > > Any advice would be welcome > > > > Regards > > Dennis. > > ,-._|\ Robert Traynor (BobT) > / Oz \ email rtraynor at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au > \_,--.x/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 10 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:11:11 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: eCS install I guess you really need to see what those messages that flash past on the screen are. Can you turn off processor and/or external cache in the BIOS, can you reduce processor clock to the minimum speed in the BIOS (or using dip switches or jumpers on the motherboard), this'll make the system run like a dog, but perhap's you'll get a chance to see what the messages are. Cheers/2 Ed. Dennis Nolan wrote: > New day, New Chapter. > > As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. > > Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the > install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z > > Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages > that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and > the following error message. > > The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on > line 125 of the config.sys file. > > Line 125 is ignored. > > The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the > system. > > If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, > and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the > screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. > > Any advice would be welcome > > Regards > Dennis. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 11 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:13:46 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: eCS install Silly question .... but are you sure you have selected the ciorrect SCSI driver in the setup page ? Cheers/2 Ed. Dennis Nolan wrote: > Hi Rob > Good point > > I have a CDROM as the Master device on IDE_0 > A CDRWROM as the Master device on IDE_1 > The SCSI drive is divided into the following partitions > > C: E: F: R: & T: > > The CDROM is mapped to D: by LVM, and cannot be changed, though the installer does set > it to Y: > > However I have just taken note of you comments and re attempted with the Reserved > Drive set to U, I also continued with Alt F4 > Here are the results > CDFS.IFS > IBMCDROM.DMD > \LOCATECD.SYS > \ECS\BOOT\UNICODE This brought up a SYS1719 Message, something about it not being a > valid device driver > JFS.IFS > TESTCFG.SYS > \ECS\BOOT\DOS.SYS > \ECS\BOOT\PMDD.SYS > \ECS\BOOT\POINTDD.SYS > \ECS\BOOT\MOUSE.SYS > > The 3 USB related drivers I skipped > > ERASEFIL.SYS > CMD.EXE > CMD.EXE > CMD.EXE > Prepareing to start installer > SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . > SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . > Z:\PMSHELL.EXE > > The file PMWP couldnt be found etc > > Regards > Dennis. > > "Robert Traynor (BobT)" wrote: > > > Hi Dennis, > > > > How many CD type drives do you have.? > > Any zip drives.? > > > > These will require drive letters and you may have chosen too high > > a drive letter X:. > > In sufficient system description, details please. > > > > Suggestion ONE. > > Try a SLIGHTLY lower one. > > > > Second suggestion. HIDE some of the EXISTING drives from eCS to bring > > down your drive letters and let the installer chose its own standard > > range of drive letters. > > > > AFTER installation, reassign (or ADD) drive letters to your > > hearts' content. > > > > Regards, > > Robert Traynor (BobT). > > 5 June 2003 17:42 > > > > On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000, Dennis Nolan wrote: > > > > > New day, New Chapter. > > > > > > As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. > > > > > > Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the > > > install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z > > > > > > Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages > > > that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and > > > the following error message. > > > > > > The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on > > > line 125 of the config.sys file. > > > > > > Line 125 is ignored. > > > > > > The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the > > > system. > > > > > > If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, > > > and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the > > > screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. > > > > > > > > > Any advice would be welcome > > > > > > Regards > > > Dennis. > > > > ,-._|\ Robert Traynor (BobT) > > / Oz \ email rtraynor at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au > > \_,--.x/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 12 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:16:34 +1000 From: Ed Durrant Subject: Re: ADSL vs Cable (was: iPrimus personal help) What's your experience on speed with ADSL compared to Cable ? I've been hearing aweful performance stories from colleagues with BigPond ADSL around Sydney. Cheers/2 Ed. Paul Smedley wrote: > I've been on Internode ADSL since July last > year. Whilst I was on Cable there were like 2 outages in 15 months - USED to be rock > solid... > > Cheers, > > Paul. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 13 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:53:39 +0950 (CST) From: "Paul Smedley" Subject: Re: ADSL vs Cable (was: iPrimus personal help) G'day Ed, On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:16:34 +1000, Ed Durrant wrote: >What's your experience on speed with ADSL compared to Cable ? I've been hearing aweful >performance stories from colleagues with BigPond ADSL around Sydney. With Internode 512k ADSL, I consistently get 50-55 k/s download speed. Sure cable can theoretically deliver 1000 k/s but how often have you seen those kinds of speeds. I'm on Internode's Flatrate deal - which is essentially unlimited download - except that if you're one of the top downloaders in the Flatrate pool, your speed gets reduced. However, even in months where I've downloaded 15+ gb, my speed has still been >25k/s. In short - I'd never go back to cable and 3 gig limits!!! I like being able to download the 3 eCS 1.1 CDs just because I can so that I don't have to wait to receive them in the mai! Cheers, Paul. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **= Email 14 ==========================** Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:06:45 +1100 From: "Mike O'Connor" Subject: Re: eCS install Dennis Nolan wrote: >Hi Rob >Good point > >I have a CDROM as the Master device on IDE_0 >A CDRWROM as the Master device on IDE_1 >The SCSI drive is divided into the following partitions > >C: E: F: R: & T: > >The CDROM is mapped to D: by LVM, and can > be changed by setting reserve driveletter to C: on previous system, either in your previous config.sys or using the drives-notebook. v 1.1 does allow the change luckily now as the CD-drives are allocated driveletters in LVM logical view. >not be changed, though the installer does set >it to Y: > >However I have just taken note of you comments and re attempted with the Reserved >Drive set to U, I also continued with Alt F4 >Here are the results > CDFS.IFS >IBMCDROM.DMD >\LOCATECD.SYS >\ECS\BOOT\UNICODE This brought up a SYS1719 Message, something about it not being a >valid device driver >JFS.IFS >TESTCFG.SYS >\ECS\BOOT\DOS.SYS >\ECS\BOOT\PMDD.SYS >\ECS\BOOT\POINTDD.SYS >\ECS\BOOT\MOUSE.SYS > >The 3 USB related drivers I skipped > >ERASEFIL.SYS >CMD.EXE >CMD.EXE >CMD.EXE >Prepareing to start installer >SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . >SYS 1804 The system couldnt find the file . >Z:\PMSHELL.EXE > >The file PMWP couldnt be found etc > >Regards >Dennis. > > >"Robert Traynor (BobT)" wrote: > >>Hi Dennis, >> >>How many CD type drives do you have.? >>Any zip drives.? >> >>These will require drive letters and you may have chosen too high >>a drive letter X:. >>In sufficient system description, details please. >> >>Suggestion ONE. >>Try a SLIGHTLY lower one. >> >>Second suggestion. HIDE some of the EXISTING drives from eCS to bring >>down your drive letters and let the installer chose its own standard >>range of drive letters. >> >>AFTER installation, reassign (or ADD) drive letters to your >>hearts' content. >> >>Regards, >>Robert Traynor (BobT). >>5 June 2003 17:42 >> >>On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:33:34 +1000, Dennis Nolan wrote: >> >>>New day, New Chapter. >>> >>>As Ed sugested, went into the page to set my own settings. >>> >>>Set the country to Aus. and the reserved drive to X, that lets the >>>install map the CD to Y and the Ramdisk to Z >>> >>>Hit F10 and then 30 or so seconds later I get a hole lot of messages >>>that dissapear so fast I can't read them, followed by a clear screen and >>>the following error message. >>> >>>The system cannot find the file specified in the PROTSHELL Statement on >>>line 125 of the config.sys file. >>> >>>Line 125 is ignored. >>> >>>The system is stopped. Correct the preceeding error and restart the >>>system. >>> >>>If I start with Alt F2 instead of F10, I get the drivers wbeing loaded, >>>and I'm fairly certain that the last thing I see at the bottom of the >>>screen before the error condition wipes the screen is PMSHELL. >>> >>> >>>Any advice would be welcome >>> >>> Hi Denis, Have you thought about putting the master on IDE-1, at least temporarily rejumpered as slave on IDE_0? -- Regards, Mike Failed the exam for -------------------- MCSE - Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert -------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------